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 Post subject: A good Idea?
PostPosted: Sun Aug 13, 2017 8:36 am 
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http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-40905632

There is something to be said for getting the experience but it is to be hoped that we don't see real beginners kangarooing onto M1 at rush hour :YMPRAY:


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 Post subject: Re: A good Idea?
PostPosted: Sun Aug 13, 2017 8:50 am 
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It makes good sense ! After all, a new driver's first experience on a motorway could be terrifying if he was on his own - better to have at least had some experience with an instructor. But do all instructors have dual-control vehicles ?


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 Post subject: Re: A good Idea?
PostPosted: Sun Aug 13, 2017 10:03 am 
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Blaze wrote:
It makes good sense ! After all, a new driver's first experience on a motorway could be terrifying if he was on his own - better to have at least had some experience with an instructor. But do all instructors have dual-control vehicles ?


A good idea, yes, but to answer Blaze's question, and without having read the link, I think that this would be restricted to qualified instructors with dual controls.

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 Post subject: Re: A good Idea?
PostPosted: Sun Aug 13, 2017 11:03 am 
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Better idea - dual carriageways - especially how to use a slip road.

Suffolk has no motorways.

J


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 Post subject: Re: A good Idea?
PostPosted: Sun Aug 13, 2017 12:19 pm 
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niemeyjt wrote:
Better idea - dual carriageways - especially how to use a slip road.

Suffolk has no motorways.

J


Nor has Cornwall, and the Scilly Isles has just one A road the A3110, (its a bit like the M 25 in that it goes around with no end), one round about and one set of traffic lights, an examiner comes from the mainland for the test, that's when I was in Cornwall

Now imagine somebody from the Scilly Isles, who has just obtained his licence, decides to drive in one of the big towns on the mainland

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 Post subject: Re: A good Idea?
PostPosted: Sun Aug 13, 2017 1:15 pm 
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Motorway driving experience as well as night time driving experience is a requirement for taking the test in Germany. The instructor certifies that these have been completed to a satisfactory level.

Always seemed like a very sensible idea to me.

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 Post subject: Re: A good Idea?
PostPosted: Sun Aug 13, 2017 2:28 pm 
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thelastoneout wrote:
Motorway driving experience as well as night time driving experience is a requirement for taking the test in Germany. The instructor certifies that these have been completed to a satisfactory level.

Always seemed like a very sensible idea to me.



Agreed, but for me the main things to remember on Autobahns are:

keep right on the right hand of the 'slow' lane and:
no elbow resting or gutter hanging.

Those Mercs, Audis, VWs and Porches really do whistle the wind in their wake. :o :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: A good Idea?
PostPosted: Sun Aug 13, 2017 2:52 pm 
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I thought the era of unlimited speeds on the autobahns was long gone?

Certainly round here they are limited to 120.

J


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 Post subject: Re: A good Idea?
PostPosted: Sun Aug 13, 2017 4:13 pm 
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It should be, but I don't think so. I think the 130 limit is advisory, rather than obligatory, but it is Andy who will tell us.

Certainly a couple of years ago I found it most intimidating, mainly because they appear from the distance so quickly, which makes overtaking more risky.

BTW J, I hope your 'round here' doesn't mean Suffolk. :o :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: A good Idea?
PostPosted: Sun Aug 13, 2017 5:13 pm 
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niemeyjt wrote:
I thought the era of unlimited speeds on the autobahns was long gone?

Certainly round here they are limited to 120.

J


Around 30% of the network is still without speed limits (source ADAC from around 18 months ago)

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 Post subject: Re: A good Idea?
PostPosted: Sun Aug 13, 2017 5:15 pm 
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Spardo wrote:
BTW J, I hope your 'round here' doesn't mean Suffolk. :o :lol:


Not sure there is anywhere in Suffolk where I could go that fast!

The SatNav routes me on the German A5 and A98 when doing UK to Zurich. Sadly SatNavs don't factor in border queues!

J


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 Post subject: Re: A good Idea?
PostPosted: Sun Aug 13, 2017 5:22 pm 
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Spardo wrote:
It should be, but I don't think so. I think the 130 limit is advisory, rather than obligatory, but it is Andy who will tell us.

Certainly a couple of years ago I found it most intimidating, mainly because they appear from the distance so quickly, which makes overtaking more risky.

BTW J, I hope your 'round here' doesn't mean Suffolk. :o :lol:


Speed limits are speed limits. Get caught exceeding them and your friendly member of the Polizei will have a friendly but firm and costly discussion.

I always advised visitors to use their mirrors much more than they would in the UK and to remember that the two pinpoint headlights that you spot there before pulling out is probably a Porsche doing at least twice your speed and will likely be right up your jacksie before you have fully pulled out into the fast lane.

The joke used to be that Angela Merkel had thought about privatising the motorway network and allowing tolls to be introduced by the owners until she realised that the Merc, BMW and Porsche owners already thought they owned the outer lane.

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 Post subject: Re: A good Idea?
PostPosted: Sun Aug 13, 2017 5:43 pm 
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niemeyjt wrote:
Spardo wrote:
BTW J, I hope your 'round here' doesn't mean Suffolk. :o :lol:


Not sure there is anywhere in Suffolk where I could go that fast!

The SatNav routes me on the German A5 and A98 when doing UK to Zurich. Sadly SatNavs don't factor in border queues!

J


Border queues? :o Time to join the EU. 8-|

Oops, sore subject. :(

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 Post subject: Re: A good Idea?
PostPosted: Sun Aug 13, 2017 6:29 pm 
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Spardo wrote:
Border queues? :o Time to join the EU. 8-|

Oops, sore subject. :(


Nah - Schengen rules apply and Switzerland is already in it.

It is to slow everyone down enough for the Police to check everyone has paid their CHF40 for a vignette!

To be fair, the last two times I have been pulled over going the other way in a British registered (and empty) car to be asked if I was bringing anything into the EU. Someone obviously has not shopped in a Swiss supermarket recently!

J


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 Post subject: Re: A good Idea?
PostPosted: Sun Aug 13, 2017 10:21 pm 
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Ah, but have you been "shopping" in your secret and personal bank vaults? :D

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 Post subject: Re: A good Idea?
PostPosted: Mon Aug 14, 2017 5:20 am 
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Its standard in France too - so I think its a good idea but would hate to have to do it now myself. Far too many selfish drivers on UK roads and foreign lorries who think because they're big they can pull out in front of you whenever they feel like it. How daunting is that going to be for a learner?

And yes, there are areas of the UK that don't have motorways - Suffolk, Norfolk, parts of Wales an Scotland to name a few. What are these learners going to do - drive for an hour or more to get to one, thats going to be an expensive lesson!

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 Post subject: Re: A good Idea?
PostPosted: Mon Aug 14, 2017 7:19 am 
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As I said before, I haven't read the link, Sue, but I'm not sure it is compulsory, just permitted. So not necessarily long journeys to find a motorway.

And one small point about lorries and others 'pulling out'. This is in no small measure due to the failure to give way to allow legitimate and well signalled overtaking. I'm talking about France, not UK, where drivers generally, on seeing a vehicle up ahead signalling, will hold back and even give the lorry drivers' flash to allow them out.

IN France the etiquette is appalling. I travel with my caravan at a steady 100 kms/hr on duals which means I am faster than the lorries but slower than many of the cars. I signal well in advance and then wait while maybe a dozen cars move into the space that I am waiting to get into as soon as the first or second has past. I see many of these cars actually increase speed on seeing my light, even though they maybe 300 metres behind me. So, it is necessary to jump into the first, safe, but for them inconvenient, space that presents.

Almost always the cars that give way to me are British or Dutch.

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 Post subject: Re: A good Idea?
PostPosted: Mon Aug 14, 2017 7:51 am 
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Remember the speed difference between a lorry and car travelling at speed limit is 14 MPH in UK but 25 MPH in France - so the hold up is greater.

Also, I think we have all witnessed the lorry doing 90 KPH overtaking the lorry only doing 89.9 KPH and holding everyone up. It does not seem to occur to the slower lorry to momentarily slow down.

However, having driven towing a 3.5T Ifor Williams in France (the Peripherique was fun!), I also think French drivers do not understand the issues faced in terms of speeds, distances and acceleration - possibly because most are only used to towing <500Kg supermarket jobbies with no speed limit.

I also think French drivers do have some in-built desire to be in front of other traffic. I will set the cruise to 130 KPH by SatNav and stick there - only to be overtaken by someone who once passed then slows down!

J


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 Post subject: Re: A good Idea?
PostPosted: Mon Aug 14, 2017 8:56 am 
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niemeyjt wrote:
Remember the speed difference between a lorry and car travelling at speed limit is 14 MPH in UK but 25 MPH in France - so the hold up is greater.

Also, I think we have all witnessed the lorry doing 90 KPH overtaking the lorry only doing 89.9 KPH and holding everyone up. It does not seem to occur to the slower lorry to momentarily slow down.



J


Oh dear, this old chestnut again. Can you tell me how a lorry 'momentarily' slows down please J?

OK, he slows down, for the few minutes that the overtaking lorry takes to get past. While he is doing that he is now going slower than the next lorry behind him, who previously was going at his speed, or even slightly slower. This driver now percieves a slower vehicle in front, so he pulls out to overtake. Half way past, the first overtaker clears the previously first lorry allowing the latter (remember, he momentarily slowed?) now to resume his previous speed. The third lorry (the one who caught up because of your momentary driver?) is now half way past but can't complete. Even if he does make it past eventually he may well now be slower than the one who slowed momentarily in the first place. So then yet another overtaking sequence starts.

After all this, if many drivers followed your suggestion, over hundreds of kms they could lose maybe hours, certainly many minutes.

After a journey from Calais to Bordeaux on a Friday I once arrived at the giant Auchan warehouse 5 minutes late for my rdv time. I was turned away and told to return on Monday afternoon. Do you understand now why lorry drivers cannot afford to perform as 130 km/hr, can't-wait-a-minute car drivers would wish? An absurd speed on crowded European roads imo anyway.

The problem is with the legislators and speed limiters. If speed limiters were such a great idea they would be applied to all vehicles. Then you really would see chaos.

If they have to have them there should be a system of temporary override of say 5 minutes. Then a faster lorry could pass much more quickly, easily, and safely. But the mindset is against such commonsense.

A brief look back into the old days, before limiters. In order to start big diesels on cold mornings, many lorries had excess fuel devices in the cab. A very useful tool, yes illegal, when overtaking, to do exactly what I have been advocating. Then foreign lorries began to be imported with the excess fuel operated only from the outside, but at least we didn't have the awful limiters to contend with.

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 Post subject: Re: A good Idea?
PostPosted: Mon Aug 14, 2017 10:00 am 
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Spardo is right but the problem lies with the lorry driver who tries to overtake when he is only travelling that 0.1 kph faster than another. Can take miles and sometimes the manouevre has to be abandoned and the lorry drops back again. Frustrating as hell on dual carriageways and delays everyone, lorry and car drivers alike.


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 Post subject: Re: A good Idea?
PostPosted: Mon Aug 14, 2017 10:24 am 
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Spardo wrote:
Oh dear, this old chestnut again. Can you tell me how a lorry 'momentarily' slows down please J?


It's down to lifting the right foot for just a few seconds not a few minutes - as per Highway Code rule 168 - to allow an overtaking vehicle to pass - not to allow every lorry to pass - and not actually braking. Increase the speed differential marginally.

Of course limiters are problematic and effective on only the safest roads - doubly so since the muppets in UK failed to realise 90 KPH is not 60 MPH and legislate accordingly (like 31 MPH motorbike tests). But sadly that's where we are.

Just a quick calculation - a vehicle doing 90 travels 25 m/s, one doing 89 travels 24.72 m/s - so with a 1 KPH difference to overtake of 20 m takes 71 seconds whereas one doing 89.5 takes 142 seconds and in my 89.9 example - nearly 12 minutes (and I have been behind two Belgian lorries on the A26 for 10 minutes in the past).

If timing is so tight that one minute travelling at 89 KPH instead of 89.9 KPH is going to affect a delivery - well I am sorry but I do not see how 15 m (that is the difference in distance traveled in 1 minute at those speeds) can affect it.

J


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 Post subject: Re: A good Idea?
PostPosted: Mon Aug 14, 2017 11:31 am 
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niemeyjt wrote:
Spardo wrote:
Oh dear, this old chestnut again. Can you tell me how a lorry 'momentarily' slows down please J?


It's down to lifting the right foot for just a few seconds not a few minutes - as per Highway Code rule 168 - to allow an overtaking vehicle to pass - not to allow every lorry to pass - and not actually braking. Increase the speed differential marginally.

Of course limiters are problematic and effective on only the safest roads - doubly so since the muppets in UK failed to realise 90 KPH is not 60 MPH and legislate accordingly (like 31 MPH motorbike tests). But sadly that's where we are.

Just a quick calculation - a vehicle doing 90 travels 25 m/s, one doing 89 travels 24.72 m/s - so with a 1 KPH difference to overtake of 20 m takes 71 seconds whereas one doing 89.5 takes 142 seconds and in my 89.9 example - nearly 12 minutes (and I have been behind two Belgian lorries on the A26 for 10 minutes in the past).

If timing is so tight that one minute travelling at 89 KPH instead of 89.9 KPH is going to affect a delivery - well I am sorry but I do not see how 15 m (that is the difference in distance traveled in 1 minute at those speeds) can affect it.

J


I haven't the time to check all your calculations but I didn't see any allowance for the 30 or 40 metre safe distance travelled before one 13 metre vehicle can pass another.

However, leaving that aside for the moment,

Quote:
It's down to lifting the right foot for just a few seconds not a few minutes - as per Highway Code rule 168 - to allow an overtaking vehicle to pass - not to allow every lorry to pass - and not actually braking. Increase the speed differential marginally.


You say 'not to allow every lorry to pass', but that is exactly what can, and often does, happen when one vehicle cuts its speed by even a small amount. Before the vehicle overtaking him is clear, he can't resume his natural speed, and by that time, a slower vehicle behind has already started his overtake, and so on. He effectively goes backwards relative to slower vehicles behind.

I have not read the Highway code for years, but my memory is that you should allow enough space in front for an overtaking vehicle to regain his position in your lane. That is not the same thing.

I really do wonder why you think your arrival at destination needing a speed of 130 km/hr is more valuable than anyone else's who is restricted to 40 km/hr less. I suppose I could say that if it makes you 5 minutes late for a meeting, as my example did above, would you really be forced to spend 2 and a half days sleeping in your cab because of it. Of course not, you would be comfortably in a hotel, expenses paid no doubt.

It's worse than that for the lorry driver, by law he would be forbidden to do it, required to sleep away from the cab, but probably with no extra recompense.

Don't blame lorry drivers for the actions of stupid lawmakers.

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 Post subject: Re: A good Idea?
PostPosted: Mon Aug 14, 2017 11:58 am 
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Spardo wrote:
He effectively goes backwards relative to slower vehicles behind.


But relative to the road, which determines where he needs to get, he is still very much going forwards - just covering 16.6 metres less distance (1000/60) per minute at 89 vs 90 - which continuing at 89 KPH he will make up in under 2 seconds. As I say above, if your journey is planned to the nearest 2 seconds, well, I am surprised.

Spardo wrote:
I really do wonder why you think your arrival at destination needing a speed of 130 km/hr is more valuable than anyone else's who is restricted to 40 km/hr less.


Well taking my Belgian example, in 10 minutes at 90 vs 130 a car will travel 6.67 Kms less - which will take each and every car driver 3 minutes extra to make up when back to 130. So to turn the question around, is a 2 second delay for one lorry driver more important than 3 minutes delay for every following car driver?

Spardo wrote:
I suppose I could say that if it makes you 5 minutes late for a meeting, as my example did above, would you really be forced to spend 2 and a half days sleeping in your cab because of it. Of course not, you would be comfortably in a hotel, expenses paid no doubt.


Tut tut!

J


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 Post subject: Re: A good Idea?
PostPosted: Mon Aug 14, 2017 12:29 pm 
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niemeyjt wrote:
Spardo wrote:
He effectively goes backwards relative to slower vehicles behind.


But relative to the road, which determines where he needs to get, he is still very much going forwards - just covering 16.6 metres less distance (1000/60) per minute at 89 vs 90 - which continuing at 89 KPH he will make up in under 2 seconds. As I say above, if your journey is planned to the nearest 2 seconds, well, I am surprised.

Spardo wrote:
I really do wonder why you think your arrival at destination needing a speed of 130 km/hr is more valuable than anyone else's who is restricted to 40 km/hr less.


Well taking my Belgian example, in 10 minutes at 90 vs 130 a car will travel 6.67 Kms less - which will take each and every car driver 3 minutes extra to make up when back to 130. So to turn the question around, is a 2 second delay for one lorry driver more important than 3 minutes delay for every following car driver?

Spardo wrote:
I suppose I could say that if it makes you 5 minutes late for a meeting, as my example did above, would you really be forced to spend 2 and a half days sleeping in your cab because of it. Of course not, you would be comfortably in a hotel, expenses paid no doubt.


Tut tut!

J


I take your last comment as a no then. With regard to your first paragraph, what makes you think that this will only happen once. It is impossible to calculate, but, taking your 2 seconds delay, multiplied many, many times in a 800 km journey that works out at a helluva lot more.

If you would slow down a bit, and calculate your journey time on a different basis, you would be less upset by it all.

I calculate my current journeys at an average of 60km/hr on single carriageways, 70, where a mixture is applicable and 100 on duals. I am very rarely more than a few minutes out on my calculations. I did the same with the lorry, which is why my Auchan experience was rare. My arrival in Budapest with the cats, despite roadworks, deviations and very high speeding cars, was only 1 hour late in a 3 day journey.

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 Post subject: Re: A good Idea?
PostPosted: Mon Aug 14, 2017 2:49 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: A good Idea?
PostPosted: Mon Aug 14, 2017 3:07 pm 
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How many women do you see driving a camping car or towing a caravan ? Not many ! When we first came to France, I was told by several Frenchmen that driving a tractor was a man's job :-j I told them I'd been driving one since I was 14 ... it was always nice to see the expression on their faces !
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 Post subject: Re: A good Idea?
PostPosted: Mon Aug 14, 2017 3:42 pm 
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I taught no 1 daughter how to drive ours - and how to roll the pony field so she had an interest in doing it.

She was less good at mowing grass - with a rear mounted deck remembering it swings the other way when you turn!

However, I guess in the era of cranking handles and no power steering it was a man's job.

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 Post subject: Re: A good Idea?
PostPosted: Mon Aug 14, 2017 6:40 pm 
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niemeyjt wrote:
However, I guess in the era of cranking handles and no power steering it was a man's job.

J


Sounds a bit like the 'courtesy' car I had from the dealer while mine was being expensively re-generated. 8-|

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 Post subject: Re: A good Idea?
PostPosted: Mon Aug 14, 2017 7:54 pm 
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niemeyjt wrote:
However, I guess in the era of cranking handles and no power steering it was a man's job.

It's been a while since those days (having to crank-start) ! Fortunately we had power-steering ;)


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 Post subject: Re: A good Idea?
PostPosted: Mon Aug 14, 2017 9:51 pm 
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All this about trucks doing or not doing? The one thing they aren't doing is sticking all these trucks in a long line and connecting them together and taking lots of goods from one central depot to another a LONG way away and instead of having all these individual thirsty, drty engines pumping out all sorts we could have one big donkey at the front pulling everything, maybe 30 trucks? And then having depots all over the continent where smaller trucks can pick up the goods and take them shorter distances to their destinations?

I know *-:) *-:) *-:) We could give them their own special roads and call them trains :-B :-B

The sooner the better! Most of the stuff carted around is not urgent and would be a hell of a lot better on frieght trains!

After all, you never see waggons on the railways overtaking and holding up the rest of the traffic init ;) :ymhug: :ymhug:

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 Post subject: Re: A good Idea?
PostPosted: Mon Aug 14, 2017 10:19 pm 
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Blaze wrote:
niemeyjt wrote:
However, I guess in the era of cranking handles and no power steering it was a man's job.

It's been a while since those days (having to crank-start) ! Fortunately we had power-steering ;)


Power steering? Hand cranking?

When I need my tractors I have to push them and NO power steering either

But then again they is modeled on a Lanz Bulldog init

ImageTractor 18a by John, on Flickr

Power steering indeed =:)

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 Post subject: Re: A good Idea?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 15, 2017 12:20 am 
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Location: Le Périgord Vert (24)
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Most of the stuff carted around is not urgent and would be a hell of a lot better on frieght trains!


Very true, it is called 'just in time' and is supposed to have done away with warehouses.

It has, well at least the great big static ones, the goods are still in warehouses but these ones are rolling up and down our highways and every so often some nut realises that he has ordered 'just before time' by mistake and so he sends the whole lot back on the road circuit again.

Trouble is with trains is that they are great at moving great loads of bulk, like coal and sand etc. but not much good at door to door deliveries. For those you need, oh, lots of little trucks.

So instead of 1 big truck you now have half a dozen little ones clogging up the roads and streets. :lol:

Reminds me of the first lecture I was subjected to after the Japanese took over the company I was working for. They said that we were very inefficient and that the room we were in, about 25 feet square, was all the warehousing a company our size would need in Japan.

Within 6 months they started the construction of one that was twice the size of the one they had been sneering at. :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: A good Idea?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 15, 2017 4:12 am 
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Location: Basel and Suffolk
Jonzjob wrote:
All this about trucks doing or not doing? The one thing they aren't doing is sticking all these trucks in a long line and connecting them together and taking lots of goods from one central depot to another a LONG way away and instead of having all these individual thirsty, drty engines pumping out all sorts we could have one big donkey at the front pulling everything, maybe 30 trucks? And then having depots all over the continent where smaller trucks can pick up the goods and take them shorter distances to their destinations?

I know *-:) *-:) *-:) We could give them their own special roads and call them trains :-B :-B

The sooner the better! Most of the stuff carted around is not urgent and would be a hell of a lot better on frieght trains!

After all, you never see waggons on the railways overtaking and holding up the rest of the traffic init ;) :ymhug: :ymhug:


Here they have special cranes that lift a trailer onto a special freight wagon - they then run trains all over the place - I pass one of the depots every day between Zurich and Basel.

If they can do it in a small country, why not elsewhere?

J


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 Post subject: Re: A good Idea?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 15, 2017 8:08 am 
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Don't you dare try to bring logic into this J or you will confuse the whole lot mate :shock: :shock:

Better lots of little trucks/vans doing lots of short journies that lots of big trucks doing lots of long journies.

But then if you put everything onto the trains the BIG trucks would go out of business and the BIG money for the few who operate them wouldn't be able to slip the backhanders to the people in power who keep them in business in the first place init :-?? :-??

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 Post subject: Re: A good Idea?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 15, 2017 8:12 am 
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Location: Le Périgord Vert (24)
niemeyjt wrote:

Here they have special cranes that lift a trailer onto a special freight wagon - they then run trains all over the place - I pass one of the depots every day between Zurich and Basel.

If they can do it in a small country, why not elsewhere?

J


Yes, and I believe there are financial benefits for hauliers through Germany for those trains, but, in answer to your question perhaps it is easier in a small country, rather than harder. Also, of course, it is necessary that concentrated routes only are used. If you can't fill a train it becomes unviable.

Thus I am surprised that this method hasn't been used between say, Madrid and Paris. The overwhelming preponderance of Spanish and Portuguese lorries on the N10 and A10 is marked, and now of course, they are joined by the cheaper hauliers from the Pays de l'Est.

I don't know much about them but I think they have to be special trailers. They have a massive ball like feature at the front for securing on the train, a special, lower profile to get under all the bridges and, if memory serves, are/were called Kangarous. My info may be out of date though, haven't seen one for a long time.

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