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 Post subject: Fuel additives
PostPosted: Mon Jul 24, 2017 1:19 pm 
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I drive a VW diesel, and always put in the cheapest diesel I can find. I was talking to a chap the other day who said that he uses diesel with Wynns from the local Geant supermarket. Despite being about 6 centimes more per litre, he reckons its worth it. I notice that Total do Excellium Diesel for an additional price as well, and there are other "premium" diesels from rival fuel companies. Has anyone tried these, and are they worth the extra?


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 Post subject: Re: Fuel additives
PostPosted: Mon Jul 24, 2017 2:05 pm 
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At one time the company I worked for was part owned by Shell. All managers with a company card had to fill up at a Shell station in order to get refunded. They were instructed to use normal grades and not the premium grades.

Need I say more?

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 Post subject: Re: Fuel additives
PostPosted: Mon Jul 24, 2017 2:06 pm 
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Elstow wrote:
I drive a VW diesel, and always put in the cheapest diesel I can find. I was talking to a chap the other day who said that he uses diesel with Wynns from the local Geant supermarket. Despite being about 6 centimes more per litre, he reckons its worth it. I notice that Total do Excellium Diesel for an additional price as well, and there are other "premium" diesels from rival fuel companies. Has anyone tried these, and are they worth the extra?


Yes - I always use them. Mostly Shell and BP - sometimes Total or Esso. In D5 Volvo and Td5 Discovery.

Better - more MPG, yes in my Td5 and yes in a friends Freelander 2 Td4 but not done detailed pence per mile to work out if THAT much better.

Better - cleaner - no idea, it's a diesel so dirty - but after quarter of a million miles, the Td5 still gets a "fastpass" on the MoT - but then it is only Euro 2.

However - you may be able to get same with a cheaper additive.

J


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 Post subject: Re: Fuel additives
PostPosted: Mon Jul 24, 2017 2:08 pm 
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thelastoneout wrote:
At one time the company I worked for was part owned by Shell. All managers with a company card had to fill up at a Shell station in order to get refunded. They were instructed to use normal grades and not the premium grades.

Need I say more?


But isn't this the standard company car policy - long service intervals, cheap fuel. Cheaper to run for the first 3 years, then car is sold and some mug gets the early wear and tear.

J


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 Post subject: Re: Fuel additives
PostPosted: Mon Jul 24, 2017 3:00 pm 
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I was always skeptical about premium grades until a couple of years ago - after I was persuaded by a mechanic to try them on a 10 year old Audi A6 diesel. I can't say whether or not there was a subconscious effort on my part to drive more conservatively, but I did improve consumption on a run from UK to France - house to house - which we've done dozens of times over the years at a consistent mpg. We got over 10%+ improvement with the premium grade, which paid for the price differential.

Since then we've swapped that car for a 2015 A6 diesel, and the improvement still persists. I put a premium fuel in every few fill ups.

I'm not sure I'm convinced, but Im certainly less skeptical


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 Post subject: Re: Fuel additives
PostPosted: Mon Jul 24, 2017 3:48 pm 
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J, you said "no idea, it's a diesel so dirty". Why is that? It's only dirty if the vehicle is not serviced properly or one of the older ones.

My 2 1/2 year old Citroën Grand C4 Picasso is not dirty at all, in fact I now have a CritAir sticker for it on a cat 2. That said, in 10 years time that car, totally unserviced, would be as bad as the worst.

It's the people who just drive deisels into the ground that give them a bad name.

As far as I have ever been able to tell there's no difference in different fuels and the only way you could possible tell is to do an exact comparason between them, driving under the exact same conditions to do so. Same everything, including weather, traffic and right boot? No way.

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 Post subject: Re: Fuel additives
PostPosted: Mon Jul 24, 2017 4:00 pm 
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Jonzjob wrote:
J, you said "no idea, it's a diesel so dirty". Why is that? It's only dirty if the vehicle is not serviced properly or one of the older ones.


You answered your own question - it is an older one - as I said "it is only Euro 2"

J


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 Post subject: Re: Fuel additives
PostPosted: Mon Jul 24, 2017 10:48 pm 
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J, pray explain? Euro 2?

What is that please as I have no idea?

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 Post subject: Re: Fuel additives
PostPosted: Mon Jul 24, 2017 11:17 pm 
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Jonzjob wrote:
J, pray explain? Euro 2?

What is that please as I have no idea?


There are six Euro standards for emissions from vehicles ...

Emissions standard ...... Applied to new passenger car approvals from .... Applied to all new registrations from
Euro 1 ........................1 July 1992 ............................................... 31 December 1992
Euro 2 ........................1 January 1996 .......................................... 1 January 1997
Euro 3 ........................1 January 2000 .......................................... 1 January 2001
Euro 4 ........................1 January 2005 .......................................... 1 January 2006
Euro 5 ........................1 September 2009 ...................................... 1 January 2011
Euro 6 ........................1 September 2014 .......................................1 September 2015

Each Euro standard has a strict criteria of emissions that cars have to meet, and they get tougher with each level, the newer the car gets.

There's more on the Wikipedia page here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_ ... _standards


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 Post subject: Re: Fuel additives
PostPosted: Tue Jul 25, 2017 7:31 am 
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Ta Thumps. I thought it was something to do with €€€ pert-extra :ymblushing: :ymblushing:

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 Post subject: Re: Fuel additives
PostPosted: Tue Jul 25, 2017 12:32 pm 
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I've no idea what E-number our 5 year old car is, but we were offered, and recieved, a Crit'Air 2 badge.

Surprised me as that is only one down from electric. :o

Shame really as I don't need much excuse to avoid the centre of Paris, Marseille or Lyon. :|

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 Post subject: Re: Fuel additives
PostPosted: Tue Jul 25, 2017 2:06 pm 
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Spardo wrote:
Surprised me as that is only one down from electric.


2 I think. An electric is 0 - https://www.ecologique-solidaire.gouv.f ... ir-critair

J


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 Post subject: Re: Fuel additives
PostPosted: Tue Jul 25, 2017 2:42 pm 
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That's cheating, 2 no. 1s :o

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 Post subject: Re: Fuel additives
PostPosted: Tue Jul 25, 2017 2:48 pm 
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Yer tis in English

https://www.certificat-air.gouv.fr/en/

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 Post subject: Re: Fuel additives
PostPosted: Tue Jul 25, 2017 4:44 pm 
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niemeyjt wrote:
thelastoneout wrote:
At one time the company I worked for was part owned by Shell. All managers with a company card had to fill up at a Shell station in order to get refunded. They were instructed to use normal grades and not the premium grades.

Need I say more?


But isn't this the standard company car policy - long service intervals, cheap fuel. Cheaper to run for the first 3 years, then car is sold and some mug gets the early wear and tear.

J



The prime sales points seem to be better mileage per gallon and a cleaner engine. Cleaner engine = higher burn temperature = more NOx - so perhaps not the benefit you might expect. Longer engine life does not feature highly in many of the premium fuels sales pitches - and in any case when was the last time you heard of a vehicle being scrapped because the engine had blown up?

This link:
https://www.moneysupermarket.com/car-in ... -unleaded/

seems to think that the benefits are really only apparent for high performance cars, and sadly Porsche, Maserati, Ferrari and Lambos were not on the Shell managers' purchase list.


Clearly Shell did not believe that the extra mpg related to the extra cost of the fuel.

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 Post subject: Re: Fuel additives
PostPosted: Tue Jul 25, 2017 8:07 pm 
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[quote="thelastoneout"Cleaner engine = higher burn temperature = more NOx - so perhaps not the benefit you might expect./quote]

An interesting equation. So let's be honest.

How many car drivers want to have a coked up engine / blocked turbo?

How many drivers know or care about how much NOx they produce?

Engine failure - actually an interesting topic as the Volvo kept going into limp-home mode with a "service engine" message. The garage serviced it and problem has gone - but they did warn me that there was a risk that the turbo could be coked up - apparently it is a variable vane one and the bearings the vanes turn on get clogged. Now the Volvo is worth more than the likely £500 turbo cleaning bill - but other cars may not be.

J


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 Post subject: Re: Fuel additives
PostPosted: Tue Jul 25, 2017 9:46 pm 
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Perhaps the time has come when one new car on the raod = one car off the road?

I remember a number of years back, a programme from Tokyo where if you wanted to buy a car as a Tokyo resident, a little man on a cycle would go to your house and produce a tape measure from his pocket and measure to see if you had the space to park the car you intended to buy so that it was totally clear of the road? If you hadn't the room then you were not allowed to buy the car.

Simple, but effective. Now I doubt if the big money making car makers would allow that?

But back to the thread. If you are driving a car that is producing a smoke screen then, he same as a failing light, you should be given a ticket to appear with it sorted within a couple of days or the car will be crushed! It's not rocket science?

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 Post subject: Re: Fuel additives
PostPosted: Tue Jul 25, 2017 9:57 pm 
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Jonzjob wrote:

But back to the thread. If you are driving a car that is producing a smoke screen then, he same as a failing light, you should be given a ticket to appear with it sorted within a couple of days or the car will be crushed! It's not rocket science?



Not a new idea, back in the 60s I was stopped chugging up hill with a screen behind which would have put a convoy destroyer to shame. In a lorry. I was pulled in and told to take it off the road immediately. It wasn't hard, I was filling in for a holidaying owner driver and he had to sort it when he got back.

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 Post subject: Re: Fuel additives
PostPosted: Wed Jul 26, 2017 9:56 am 
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Well, it will all be acedemic when I reach 98. :o

No more diesels. :-?

Am I bovvered? :ymsmug:

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 Post subject: Re: Fuel additives
PostPosted: Wed Jul 26, 2017 2:22 pm 
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Spardo wrote:
Well, it will all be acedemic when I reach 98. :o

No more diesels. :-?

Am I bovvered? :ymsmug:


Not so fast - someone has been doing some sums (and I assume figures for UK and France will be similar):


J
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/07 ... t-unveils/


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 Post subject: Re: Fuel additives
PostPosted: Wed Jul 26, 2017 5:39 pm 
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There is of course the implied assumption that everyone will be working to the same patterns as today.

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 Post subject: Re: Fuel additives
PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2017 4:45 pm 
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Right on cue, as we have a fuel additve thread going, I had a problem yesterday.

Just pulling away from a roundabout, a sudden loss of power so, thinking fuel feed problem, pulled over to the grass.

Then I noticed that the engine was still ticking over and the gearbox was in 1st. Also a little orange icon that looked like a gearbox was showing on the dash.

Nothing else amiss, and no 'stop' signal, I cautiously tried 2nd and then third. All ok so limped to the next layby and checked the manual.

The icon signifies a problem with the pollution control system and advises a visit to a Peugeot garage to check. This I did, at my usual local one as I was going that way, and asked the question 'am I ok for a 1,000+ allez/retour beyond Paris'.

After plugging in the inevitable laptop he asked me if I put additive in the fuel. No. Should do it at every top up he said. Then he said (by this time the icon had disappeared) better make a rdv for when you get back and, in answer to my query as to how long this operation would take, he said about 2 to 2 and a half hours.

Now back home again I am wondering whether I should ring in the morning for a rdv or is he making something of nothing.

So, what is the additive I should be putting in, how much and how often, and what do you think he is going to do for 150 minutes?

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 Post subject: Re: Fuel additives
PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2017 5:02 pm 
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From the description I wonder if he refers to Diesel exhaust fluid or AdBlue - which is a urea based liquid that goes in a SEPARATE tank from the fuel.

Basically, it is used to clean the exhaust gasses coming out of the engine - so maybe something (diesel particulate filter?) is upset if you have not been doing so.

Have a look at this - and see if you can spot the ad-blue filler cap (and so you'll know where it goes next time!)

http://infodiesel.co.uk/adblue-peugeot/ ... panel-van/

J


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 Post subject: Re: Fuel additives
PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2017 5:14 pm 
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That's what I thought. SIL has a diesel BMW that demanded a blue additive and he had 1000kms to get it done, or else - same for daughter with new range rover evoque(sp). My VW diesel has never made such demands, neither has the wife's, go for ever, on little fuel Merc B class. Or, maybe that's why VW and Merc are getting chastised for bad diesel behaviour?


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 Post subject: Re: Fuel additives
PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2017 5:26 pm 
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I specifically asked him if he meant AdBlue, with which I am familiar as all my lorry driver friends use it these days, but he said no, not AdBlue.

Also, there is definitely not an AdBlue filler cap next to the diesel filler. Mine is a Partner Tepee Multispace, not a panel van, and maybe older (at 5 years) than the models mentioned in your link.

A friend said his son has a Citroen Despatch van and there is a reservoir under the bonnet that he says must be kept up to a level. I'll have a look tomorrow.

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 Post subject: Re: Fuel additives
PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2017 5:27 pm 
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Not all of the recent VW models have ad blue technology - in fact I think the emissions rigging is for those without.

However, the cartel / collusion allegations do include discussions between VW, BMW and Daimler groups to limit the size of Ad Blue tanks so cars would need top ups (ideally at manufacturer's expensive service centres) between regular services.

J


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 Post subject: Re: Fuel additives
PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2017 7:44 am 
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Well, a bit of googling reveals that my engine needs (can't find out how often) a diesel preventative additive (not AdBlue).

A 1 litre bottle needs to be added directly to the fuel tank when aprox. half full, then driven on a motorway for 30 odd kms at normal (?) speeds but increasing the revs to 3,500 from time to time. I rarely exceed 2,000 so this will be painful to the ear but also might explain why I need the stuff. 8-|

Seems a bit extreme for something I'd never heard of but also persuades me that the mecano might know what he is talking about so will bite the bullet and ring for a rdv today.

For the high mileages I drive I can't afford to take risks.

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 Post subject: Re: Fuel additives
PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2017 11:34 am 
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Interesting update - thanks.

I have just had a look at an on-line version of the manual for the car (https://www.kemwel.com/peugeot-fleet/do ... expert.pdf p126)

Diesel additive level (Diesel with particle emission filter)
The minimum level of this additive is indicated by lighting of the service warning light, accompanied by an audible signal and a message in the screen.
When this occurs with the engine running it is due to the start of saturation of the particle emission filter (exceptionally prolonged urban type driving conditions: low speed,
long traffic jams, ...).
In order to regenerate the filter, you are advised to drive at a speed higher than 40 mph (60 km/h) for at least five minutes as soon as possible, when traffic conditions
permit (until the message disappears and the service warning lamp goes off).
During regeneration of the particle emission filter, relay noise may be heard under the dashboard.
If the message is still displayed and if the service warning lamp remains on, contact a PEUGEOT dealer or a qualified workshop.


It goes on to say:

Topping up
This additive must be topped up by a PEUGEOT dealer or a qualified workshop without delay.


So perhaps this is what it is all about?

Funny thing is, this implies it is a separate tank - may be sneak a look at what they do when it goes in?

J


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 Post subject: Re: Fuel additives
PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2017 12:37 pm 
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Made the rdv for Monday, but have to leave it all day (courtesy car supplied) as they have lots of others booked in.

Then they rang back to ask me to take it today because there are 3 different coloured liquids and they must see it to determine which to order.

So, went there and the man had to jack it up and wriggle underneath to look at it. The he ordered it for Monday am.

He said that it should be topped up every 160,000 kms or so but that the dosing of the tank is automatic.

So I said that perhaps after the next 150,000 I should ask him to order it ready to avoid the same thing happening again. 'Oh no,' he said 'once it's done it's done'. I don't think he has come across someone who envisages more than 320,000 kms with the same car before. :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Fuel additives
PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2017 4:03 pm 
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niemeyjt wrote:
a urea based liquid that goes in a SEPARATE tank from the fuel.
J

My urea based liquid goes into a separate tank - the fosse septique!

Since the OP I have filled the tank twice with Diesel with Wynns. I can't say that I have noticed much difference. I'll be heading to the UK in September, so I might fill up with it before that and see how a blast of motorway driving affects it.


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 Post subject: Re: Fuel additives
PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2017 6:54 pm 
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Elstow wrote:
My urea based liquid goes into a separate tank - the fosse septique!


What a waste of recycled wine - put it on the compost heap like Bob Flowerdew does with his recycled cider.

J


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 Post subject: Re: Fuel additives
PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2017 10:27 pm 
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I have to say that I do a bit of that too, although I wait for a break in the traffic.


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 Post subject: Re: Fuel additives
PostPosted: Fri Aug 11, 2017 8:59 am 
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The topping up was all done and dusted by midday last Monday, but the bill gave me a bit of a start. € 266, with the actual fluid only costing about € 50. No wonder they put it out of reach and needing a special kit to replenish.

I also noticed that the initial diagnosis with the laptop plugged in was charged at € 50.

Still, no need for that again till 2019. 8-|

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